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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jul 9, 2007 9:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hugo - totally non-Dead - others please ignore

What do I believe? Here's a quote by the economist Stuart Chase you may have come across before:

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

I don't believe in anything spiritual. I don't believe in anything that might be described as supernatural. I have no faith or belief in any higher being or beings that might take an interest in my life. So from that you may gather that I don't believe in God and I certainly do not believe that there is any prospect of an afterlife in any form. And please note that none of this makes me unhappy. I have no need for faith in my life, there is no gap that it could fill.

As to whether I've read the Bible - I attended Sunday School from an early age (don;t know if you have such things in the States) and church up to about the age of 14 - at which time and after much reflection I decided that there was nothing there for me. So while I make no claim to having read the Bible cover to cover I'm familiar with much of it.

I hope that helps you. As far as namecalling goes - a polite and thoughtful post will always be responded to in kind, so I appreciate your responses too.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Jul 9, 2007 11:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hugo - totally non-Dead - others please ignore

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

please forgive my intrusion, but i couldn't help but be intrigued by this conversation and wish to add the following if i may;

several years ago i "mistakenly" booked an appointment with the "wrong" physiotherapist for treatment of an extremely painful and debilitating chronic recurring pinched nerve condition... the therapist used a combination of cranial-sacral (gentle manipulation of the skull plates as well as the abdominal organs), acupressure, and a host of other "airy-fairy" therapies that i could not help but be skeptical of...the resulting cure was nearly instantaneous, taking place in a matter of days, whereas in the past, conventional therapy had taken many months to obtain less than desirable results

i didn't have to believe to get results...and the therapist simply shrugs off the phenomenon as, "it doesn't work for everyone"

sometimes wonder if God is "Chi", or "Lifeforce" if you will (whatever that is)...perhaps science will one day develop instruments to "see" such things as electron flow through a conductor??

i still don't necessarily believe, but i can no longer be certain that i disbelieve either

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jul 10, 2007 2:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hugo - totally non-Dead - others please ignore

Hey midnight – feel free to ‘intrude’ at any time. No need to apologise at all – it’s open debate around here as far as I’m concerned.

So far as your experience with the therapist goes, I’m pleased to hear that you had a positive outcome but, really, it doesn’t amount to proof of anything. Having no medical expertise I can’t say exactly what might have happened but it is possible that you experienced a spontaneous remission of your symptoms that was coincident with your session with the therapist. You don’t say where you felt the pain but I would find it hard to believe that both ‘manipulation of the skull plates’ and the abdominal organs could have a directed effect on some other part of the body.

As to the supposed benefits or otherwise of cranialsacral therapy you might want to take a look at this:

There’s not much I can add to that. I think you’re right to remain sceptical, whatever the positive, in your case at least, outcome may have been.

You don’t have to believe to get results from conventional medicine. Antibiotics will kill bacteria whether or not you believe that they will. If you suffer from kidney failure a session on a dialysis machine will work for you even if you have no clue what it’s doing. Your therapist’s comment that ‘it doesn’t work for everyone’ is a typical alternative practitioner’s get out clause in my experience. Sure you can come back and say that some medicines work for some people and not others but that can be explained at least partly in solid scientific terms by genetic differences that have nothing to do with whether or not you believe in the treatment.

I no more believe that god is a lifeforce or chi than I believe that he’s a stern guy with a big white beard looking down from up there somewhere.

And while we might not be able to ‘see’ electron flow we can certainly measure it – an amp-meter will do that for you.

So I'll continue to be a happy unbeliever - at least until some hard evidence comes along. It may be a long wait.